Dennis, this is likely a naive question, but if your clients can handle online forms, could they not just use money management software?
Dennis Howlett
· 3 years ago
Not naive at all Zoli but the issue is whether clients can complete online forms in such a way that professionals can do a stright import to their accounts package. It's a barrier for virtually all SMB systems. BTW - Which money management packages were you thinking about?
Stuart Jones
· 3 years ago
Your Update (do non professionals ........understand any of this) is surely the key to this issue.
We as professionals seem to talk a different language to our clients as well as being unable to impress on them the importance (for a great deal of reasons) of well-kept accounting records.
I think that any web based "form" should be based on simple entries. For example, in the case of a shop, the first page would say Enter today's total takings followed by a box to enter the amount. The next page would ask for details of amounts paid out in cash.
The problems start to arise with VAT, credit sales & receipts, credit cards, etc,etc,etc
The answer must be some form (no pun intended but I will take any credits- sorry another one)of training, but unless it is interesting/exciting and captures the client's interest we go straight back to the problem of clients not understanding the importance of "a set of good books".
Emily Coltman
· 3 years ago
I'm inclined to agree with Zoli - if clients can do something like this successfully then they'd most likely be able to use a simple package such as More to keep their books.
Also clients do need to be given training in plain simple English, as Stuart says, to make sure they can use forms and/or packages successfully.
Jason Holden
· 3 years ago
It’s an interesting one this Dennis, the idea of a quick entry sheet for clients to use is appealing, I also agree with Emily and Stuart that training in plain English is key, but I also think there is and always will be a section of clients that are just not able to grasp the use of accounting software (for what ever reason) and for these a simple and easy input sheet would be ideal.
However, I have given this some thought (a first time for everything I hear you say), it is easier to devise such a sheet for a ‘cash’ business but how would you do it for a credit business?
After all if you are using ledgers then will you have one sheet for invoices then another for payment/receipts and would you ask the client to some how identify what payment/receipt is for which invoice, I can only see this getting worse than if you asked them to use the software in the first place.
I can understand the appeal, but are we in danger of trying to cater for all eventual client situations, if so, where do we draw the line?
The advantages of products like winweb (I don’t know enough about Twinfield, but I will assume they offer this facility also for now) and Twinfield is that your clients can scan in all their invoices and bank statements and load them up onto their storage area for the accountant/bookkeeper to use to prepare books and records.
Maybe we should accept that some people are not going to be able to use accounting software, and they either have to pay more for the work accountants do, or give them the option above.
And as I said earlier I have no idea how a data entry sheet could be achieved for all situations. If anyone knows better I would love to hear about it!
Stuart Jones
· 3 years ago
I agree with Jason that "some ( most? )people are not going to be able to use accounting software".
What fascinates/worries me is:
1. How many will be prepared to pay for bookkeeping?
2. Most of them will see that the majority of firms will accept bad books without comment. Why therefore pay for something which isn't needed.
Jason Holden
· 3 years ago
Lets be honest, how many of us have in the past told clients when their books are bad, or do we say 'oh I have seen worse' or some such chestnut, I think we are our own worst enemy at times.
I maybe a bit off the mark here, but my view is simple, if the client wants a service that if done right will benefit them and their business, they simply have to pay for it, don’t forget we also run a business.
If the books are kept more accurately then clients will know who owes/is owed and not overpay or under recover, but far more importantly than nice books (which is what we are talking about), if it’s online the accountant can do what he does best, and advise the business, help them achieve whatever goals/ambitions they have, help drive the business forward, now that’s got to be worth a few quid on a bookkeeper or such like.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, this is why we now only take on clients who use our software and we have people to keep an eye on entries and they also act as a point of contact, and thank god it’s not me!
alastair
· 3 years ago
perhaps most importantly you have to establish what business you are in, and what service you are providing. I worked as an auditor to a variety of SMEs over a period of years - quality of the records was always variable, and even clients with very good records were able to struggle with HP and finance lease agreements. I had one client with exceptional records but the accountant struggled with accruals and prepayments! The point is you get allsorts, but bookkeeping and records belonged to the client, and my role qua bad records was to help the client - this did not mean do the books for them, but it did mean getting them to take responsibility, and where they asked for extra work then getting them to pay for it. Then I took on management of a bureau. Clients outsourced their bookkeeping. I ran this using Sage Line 50. There were a mixture of jobs done in house and jobs done at the clients premises. In this case I was responsible for ensuring that the client kept proper records. This was a very different business to be in. The concern I have with this thread is that it seems to be crossing the line. If you are doing the latter then you have to get the prime records - data capture forms misses the point.
Dennis Howlett
· 3 years ago
This discussion is going in a couple of directions - which is fine. It's clear where the training etc issues go.
I'm intrigued by Alastair's point: 'data capture misses the point' - are you saying this is the case when *you* as rthe accountant is responsible for maintaining the records?
Philip Woodgate
· 3 years ago
This is an interesting post it deals with so many issues we all face. To make the bookkeeping process work smoothly requires many different elements. All clients will be involved in at least part of the accounting function. For example, raising sales invoices, chasing debts and writing cheques. We are therefore all very much aware that for the whole process to go smoothly requires the client to corporate and collaborate with us.
Our approach is to spend partner and manager time (unchargeable) upfront to get the client to buy into the process and acknowledge their responsibilities. We draw up a service level document which details what will be done by both parties and the turnaround time. If the client needs their management accounts one week after the month end (which some of our overseas subsidiary clients do) then they need to be aware of what we need and when. Partners and mangers review this process constantly in the 6 months and adjust the service level agreement as required e.g. the client has been over optimistic on their turnaround time. There will always be problems, but at least we can better deal with the clients expectations this way and have a better basis to discuss costs.
Alastair’s point on records is key to the whole process and we give guidance on how the business should manage their accounting documents e.g. what information should be written on a cheque stub, write the cheque number on the supplier invoice etc.. If we have the basic accounting documents filed and completed properly then this saves us a lot of time and the client costs. Not all clients will do this of course, but they are made aware that we are completing work that they could do themselves at much less cost. In this case, we suggest an admin person they already have or a new part timer to file the documents based on our guidance notes and support. In practice, the admin staff is usually very helpful and in time we move them on to posting entries into the system.
alastair
· 3 years ago
Dennis, my point on data capture is well picked up by Philip.
All Comments
We as professionals seem to talk a different language to our clients as well as being unable to impress on them the importance (for a great deal of reasons) of well-kept accounting records.
I think that any web based "form" should be based on simple entries. For example, in the case of a shop, the first page would say Enter today's total takings followed by a box to enter the amount. The next page would ask for details of amounts paid out in cash.
The problems start to arise with VAT, credit sales & receipts, credit cards, etc,etc,etc
The answer must be some form (no pun intended but I will take any credits- sorry another one)of training, but unless it is interesting/exciting and captures the client's interest we go straight back to the problem of clients not understanding the importance of "a set of good books".
Also clients do need to be given training in plain simple English, as Stuart says, to make sure they can use forms and/or packages successfully.
However, I have given this some thought (a first time for everything I hear you say), it is easier to devise such a sheet for a ‘cash’ business but how would you do it for a credit business?
After all if you are using ledgers then will you have one sheet for invoices then another for payment/receipts and would you ask the client to some how identify what payment/receipt is for which invoice, I can only see this getting worse than if you asked them to use the software in the first place.
I can understand the appeal, but are we in danger of trying to cater for all eventual client situations, if so, where do we draw the line?
The advantages of products like winweb (I don’t know enough about Twinfield, but I will assume they offer this facility also for now) and Twinfield is that your clients can scan in all their invoices and bank statements and load them up onto their storage area for the accountant/bookkeeper to use to prepare books and records.
Maybe we should accept that some people are not going to be able to use accounting software, and they either have to pay more for the work accountants do, or give them the option above.
And as I said earlier I have no idea how a data entry sheet could be achieved for all situations. If anyone knows better I would love to hear about it!
What fascinates/worries me is:
1. How many will be prepared to pay for bookkeeping?
2. Most of them will see that the majority of firms will accept bad books without comment. Why therefore pay for something which isn't needed.
I maybe a bit off the mark here, but my view is simple, if the client wants a service that if done right will benefit them and their business, they simply have to pay for it, don’t forget we also run a business.
If the books are kept more accurately then clients will know who owes/is owed and not overpay or under recover, but far more importantly than nice books (which is what we are talking about), if it’s online the accountant can do what he does best, and advise the business, help them achieve whatever goals/ambitions they have, help drive the business forward, now that’s got to be worth a few quid on a bookkeeper or such like.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, this is why we now only take on clients who use our software and we have people to keep an eye on entries and they also act as a point of contact, and thank god it’s not me!
I worked as an auditor to a variety of SMEs over a period of years - quality of the records was always variable, and even clients with very good records were able to struggle with HP and finance lease agreements. I had one client with exceptional records but the accountant struggled with accruals and prepayments! The point is you get allsorts, but bookkeeping and records belonged to the client, and my role qua bad records was to help the client - this did not mean do the books for them, but it did mean getting them to take responsibility, and where they asked for extra work then getting them to pay for it.
Then I took on management of a bureau. Clients outsourced their bookkeeping. I ran this using Sage Line 50. There were a mixture of jobs done in house and jobs done at the clients premises. In this case I was responsible for ensuring that the client kept proper records. This was a very different business to be in.
The concern I have with this thread is that it seems to be crossing the line. If you are doing the latter then you have to get the prime records - data capture forms misses the point.
I'm intrigued by Alastair's point: 'data capture misses the point' - are you saying this is the case when *you* as rthe accountant is responsible for maintaining the records?
Our approach is to spend partner and manager time (unchargeable) upfront to get the client to buy into the process and acknowledge their responsibilities. We draw up a service level document which details what will be done by both parties and the turnaround time. If the client needs their management accounts one week after the month end (which some of our overseas subsidiary clients do) then they need to be aware of what we need and when. Partners and mangers review this process constantly in the 6 months and adjust the service level agreement as required e.g. the client has been over optimistic on their turnaround time. There will always be problems, but at least we can better deal with the clients expectations this way and have a better basis to discuss costs.
Alastair’s point on records is key to the whole process and we give guidance on how the business should manage their accounting documents e.g. what information should be written on a cheque stub, write the cheque number on the supplier invoice etc.. If we have the basic accounting documents filed and completed properly then this saves us a lot of time and the client costs. Not all clients will do this of course, but they are made aware that we are completing work that they could do themselves at much less cost. In this case, we suggest an admin person they already have or a new part timer to file the documents based on our guidance notes and support. In practice, the admin staff is usually very helpful and in time we move them on to posting entries into the system.